Neurodiversity Celebration week - Communication: Are We Really Listening?

Episode Summary:

In Part 5 of this Neurodiversity Celebration Week mini-series, Sarah and Cassie explore the topic of communication, especially between neurodivergent and neurotypical individuals. They reflect on the importance of clear, direct language, how rejection sensitivity affects the way we hear things, and why “listening” isn’t just about hearing words.

They also touch on ADHD, verbal impulsivity, emotional regulation, and a powerful concept known as the Double Empathy Problem—offering a more compassionate perspective on communication breakdowns. If you’ve ever felt misunderstood, shut down in conversation, or overwhelmed by how others speak to you (or don’t!), this episode will hit home.

Topics Discussed:

• What clean language is and why it supports neurodivergent minds
• Listening as a leadership skill & communication vs connection
• ADHD, impulsivity, blurting, and fast-paced thought
• Rejection sensitivity and verbal processing
• The Double Empathy Problem (Damien Milton’s theory)
• Communication breakdowns in mixed neurotype groups
• Creating psychological safety in teams
• Tips for clearer communication, asking for clarity & slowing down

Timestamps:

00:00 – Welcome & why communication matters
 01:15 – What is “clean language”?
 03:00 – Different ways of listening & being present
 06:30 – The Double Empathy Problem explained
 10:15 – Miscommunication between neurodivergent & neurotypical folks
 13:45 – Rejection sensitivity & assumption-making
 16:20 – ADHD, verbal overflow & blurting out
 18:10 – Communication anxiety & fear of judgement
 20:40 – Why silence can feel unsafe
 23:00 – Compassion, curiosity & co-creating safety

Key Quotes:

"We're all meaning-making machines—and many of us are on overdrive."
"Listening isn’t about being active—it’s about presence."
"If you’re not sure what something means, clarify. Don’t just assume."
"Neurodivergent communication isn’t broken. It’s different—and often deeply nuanced."
"When we feel seen and safe, that’s when we show up best."

Links & Resources:

• Cassie Footman – LinkedIn
• Neurodiversity Celebration Week Official Site
• Damian Milton – The Double Empathy Problem
• University of Edinburgh (2020) Diffusion Chain Study on Autistic Communication

Connect With Sarah

Website: www.sarahatkinsdesign.com

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Buy the 2026 Energetics of Being Journal on Amazon

Transcript

Sarah 0:01

Hello and welcome back to, part five, of our Neurodiversity Celebration Week series. Hopefully you've really enjoyed it so far and we've kind of covered some things that maybe you've been curious about in the past or maybe this has made sense to you. Maybe it's answered some questions. And today, Cassie is with me again to talk about communication because communication is like the foundation of all of our relationships, whether it's in business, family, friends, you know, everything. And I know from my own experience, I have learned to become a more impactful communicator. I, I've had to learn through my parenting, I learned very early on that my autistic boys take things very literally. They don't understand the inference. And I thought it would be really interesting because again, when I was doing my neurodiversity training, they introduced this concept of clean language. And I was like, I dunno what that is. What's that term? I had to learn about it as soon as they explained it to me, I was like, oh. It just means that I say what I mean, and I mean what I say, and that there's no room for inference. And it was something that we'd developed in this household. It's how we communicate because obviously things get lost otherwise, and things don't happen if we're not clear and concise. But I thought it'd be really interesting to have this conversation around communication especially given Cassie, your experience in bigger organizations with teams, and I know you've worked with a lot of teams and communication is one of the biggest challenges.

Cassie 1:47

Oh my goodness me. It is. It's a huge challenge and from experience quite often. One team will say, oh, that team, they don't communicate with us. They never tell us these things. And we find out at the last minute, and then we have to pull magic outta a bag, or we have to go and fix the problem. And then when you look into things, it's actually the communications on both sides. It's never just one sided, whether that's in a team scenario or whether it's down to two individuals coming together and having communication. So communication is huge. It's huge Everywhere. In work, outside of work, every single part of life. But what I've found to be true is, that with everybody I've worked with and every team that I've liaised with and been spent time with, communication is the most important aspect. And I think communication is something that many people, part of me wants to say, don't take seriously. I'm not quite sure if it's that. I think it's more if they don't realise how critically important it is, and particularly when we're talking about communication, the way that you've just expressed a clean communication. So there's so much to play at here on so many different levels. But I think most of it starts off with, the core of it is the intention behind the communication.

Sarah 3:14

Mm.

Cassie 3:15

Who is the being behind the communication?

Sarah 3:19

Yeah.

Cassie 3:19

Are we being the one who is the one that perhaps is hard done by? Are we the one that is trying to control? So is it the controller inside of us? Is it the high conant one inside of us that is trying to communicate? Because whoever it is that is behind this, that intention to have a communication is the one. Gonna go through that communication, if that makes sense.

Sarah 3:42

Yeah, but also there's different. I don't know if communication in this day and age, so part of me wants to say we're so much better at communicating our emotions, our feelings, our needs. We understand more about communication now than we ever have done before. But I wonder if, I know for me, particularly being neurodivergent, there is, there's almost too many ways to communicate, which can then be overwhelming in its own right. I am much more, I love connecting with people in person and talking to people because I can see how you are. I can see facial because I'm very visual. I look at people's body language. I read people's facial expressions. I mean, that can also be quite challenging from an RSD point of view, if I think the words that you're speaking don't necessarily match the body language. And I can make up all sorts of stories about what might be going on. But again, that's where the clean language comes in really useful in terms of working as a mixed team, like. you, you've got, we've already established that one in four people is neurodivergent. So if you've got a team of like eight

Cassie 5:07

Hmm.

Sarah 5:07

you're gonna have two neurodivergent people in your team

Cassie 5:09

Yeah.

Sarah 5:09

of some description that fall under that neurodivergent umbrella, how do you make sure keep everybody on the same page and communicating effectively? What's the best way to do it, do you think?

Cassie 5:25

Mm. What a brilliant question. So keeping people on the same page. I think there's so much in this, actually. First and foremost, there's an assumption. I'm just gonna go step back a bit because there is a, there is a question about the page. What is the page?

Sarah 5:43

Mm-hmm.

Cassie 5:44

So that's around intention and, and having a vision of what it is that is trying to be created. But if we even step further back actually, and just look at communication. When one speaks of communication, what is it that comes to one mind? You know, is it, you know, it is all communication, being nonverbal and verbal mainly. Yeah. But one of the things, the key that I believe that I, well, I've seen and also experienced myself, that you've forgotten when comes to communication. I think is the number one issue in communication problems and challenges is that of listening.

Sarah 6:28

Mm. Yes.

Cassie 6:30

Yeah. So some people will be very quick to communicate verbally with something or they'll send information out. And then we've got the nonverbal stuff. The nonverbal cues. Maybe the agitation in the body language is shown, or there's a, there's an inflection or a tone or something in the speech. There's, there's so many different ways of communicating, but very rarely are people encouraged to practice and sit with the essence of listening,

Sarah 7:00

Hmm.

Cassie 7:00

even down to a line manager listening to maybe a neurodivergent person within the team. Are they listening? Or are they sat in assumption? Are they listening with assumption? Are they listening with the filter of judgment? Are they listening at all?

Sarah 7:23

Yeah.

Cassie 7:24

And also, as a neurodivergent individual who has tried to communicate in the only way that they know possible, they don't feel seen and heard, is the line manager listening?

Sarah 7:39

Yeah.

Cassie 7:39

You know, are they listening to the line manager in the pureness of their true essence, or are they listening from a place of defensiveness?

Sarah 7:49

Mm-hmm. Yeah. This leads us on really smoothly actually, because what you are talking about, is the double empathy problem. And for those of you that might be listening and may have heard it and gone, I don't really understand what it is and why it is a thing, because, and we had this discussion like what the word empathy is like surely empathy means that you understand and you empathize with the other person. Yes, it does. But this is why the double empathy problem or why it's termed the double empathy problem is. Not meant as a judgment thing, it's just accepting that one person doesn't necessarily understand the other person. And vice versa. The problems, the challenges on both sides. So the double empathy problem is a term that was coined by an autistic researcher called Damien Milton. And I can post a link to, his information for anybody that wants to do a bit of extra reading. And the reason it is called the double empathy problem is that it, it challenges traditional view that specifically autistic individuals have a deficit in empathy, social understanding, communication, that they can't communicate very well, and that is where the problem lies. That's the traditional way. What Damien developed with his research is this idea that actually the problem isn't a one way street, right. Both autistic and non-autistic individuals can experience difficulties in understanding and empathizing with the other person. So therefore it's not, it's not just this one person isolated going, there's a gap. I don't get it. You've got the other person on the other side of another gap who also doesn't understand and, and we've touched on a little bit, but one of the things that I do with co-coaching when I'm coaching a manager and an employee. We are trying to bridge that double empathy gap, trying to share perspectives without judgment, without criticism It's trying to approach things and saying, okay, this is the challenge here. I can see how this has been misinterpreted. Maybe if you did. So it is kind of doing things from a place of neutrality,

Cassie 10:19

Yeah.

Sarah 10:20

to build that bridge in between. But sometimes it's hard'cause, I mean, you must have come up against this when you've got people just butting up. And I think when there is a double empathy problem, if it's not addressed quickly or early on, or if it's not recognized early on. It can just create massive communication breakdown.

Cassie 10:41

It can. Absolutely, and it does, and it is, I would probably say the number one reason why there is so much conflict in this world.

Sarah 10:50

Yeah.

Cassie 10:51

you know, communication is so huge. We could spend weeks talking about it and looking at it. But one of the things that, you know, I found to be really helpful when I'm working with clients and we are looking at their communication. So I work with a lot of leaders who manage teams or a lot of leaders who lead You know, businesses, et cetera, as well as individuals who work in businesses and are, are trying to communicate effectively. More often than not, they come to me believing that the problem is with the other person, and how do they deal with the other person. And actually what I do is I help them to understand the part that they play in communication. I spoken very briefly about listening, and listening is actually a really profound skill to develop because it's one that creates miracles and it's one to be willing to be in practice. You know, quite often people think, oh, well, you know, I'm, I'm an adult. Why do I need to practice my listening skills? Surely that's a child's thing, right? Or it's for somebody who has a problem, like a neurodivergent person might have a problem that needs fixing, but actually I think there's a massive invitation for all of us to practice our listening. So, you know, some of the questions I might ask somebody is, well, tell me about your listening. How do you listen when you're not in agreement with what another individual is sharing with you, how does your listening change? How does your listening change when you think that you know better?

Sarah 12:31

Hmm.

Cassie 12:34

How do conversations then go when you think you know better? How do you listen when you listen without prejudice? Do you listen without prejudice? Or are you listening with all the biases and all the prejudices present? How are we listening to what's being said? When you listen, do you listen without thinking? Do you listen without coming up with the next question?

Sarah 13:09

Oh my God, that's a big one. Because the communication thing is not just an autistic challenge, from an A DHD perspective. And I bless her. I've had, I had a work with a client a couple of years ago, and one of the things that she wanted to develop was communication and to try, and she was very aware that she had a tendency to blurt things out, we could then get misinterpreted or, you know, she was accused of being rude and not listen, not listening. and we

Cassie 13:39

Yeah.

Sarah 13:40

like why she feels that when she feels that urge, what's happening. actually what we managed to do was reframe it. She is, she managed to, rather than beating herself up and constantly thinking, mustn't shout out, mustn't call out, mustn't say anything she recognized. when she feels that urge, it's because she's excited. She's engaged with whatever is being spoken about. She's got an idea. So we worked on some strategies to help her manage that excitement because also there was an urgency to her wanting to impulsively blurt out, it's because if was this fear that if she didn't do it, then the thought has gone quickly, it's moved on too quickly. I know you get it. I totally get it. So we worked on some strategies to kind of capture those thoughts to create a bit of space between the mouth engaging and, and the thought to try and not, I guess, slow down a little bit to make sure you're listening because she said in some cases what she noticed when we did implement those her enthusiasm and her excitement if she just it down and sat on it. It was the next thing that came up. She was just a little bit ahead of everybody else in the meetings that she was attending. She just, she recognized that it was her brain working really quickly. So by capturing those thoughts and ideas, if she got to a meeting and then it was like in any other business or anybody got any questions. She could tick off the things that had already been addressed, and then she was able to then share the things that hadn't been thought of or the things that hadn't been communicated. And she said it was a massive game changer for her

Cassie 15:25

Yeah,

Sarah 15:25

in terms of how communication was then received,

Cassie 15:30

absolutely. Definitely. Yeah. And that is so powerful. It's like coming from being in a disempowered place to now all of a sudden being really powerful because you've learnt a way to manage the, you know, the ideas, the, the speed of the ideas that are coming in. The excitement of, I really need to tell you this quickly before disappears, kind of scenario laughed when you were sharing that. I know that so well That's why I've always got a sheet of paper and a pen in front of me so I can capture it down and I can get back to the being present in the listening, because otherwise I end up missing something else. But I can always circle back to, and I can relax then when I'm listening, knowing that I've written down that important point that I'm afraid to lose, because it was

Sarah 16:21

Yeah.

Cassie 16:22

valuable.

Sarah 16:23

It's funny, isn't it? Because you were talking about the listening and developing that listening and there's a study that was done by the University of Edinburgh back in 2020. And I've shared this with a few clients because a lot of my clients have that belief that they are poor communicators. it's like, well, talk about the double empathy, but actually the study by University of Edinburgh almost proves that there is a double empathy. They did a study where they looked at the communication and, they use a term called diffusion chain communication. I think in the traditional sense, if you're as old as we are, you will remember a game as a kid called Chinese Whispers. And I know that that's not very pc, so I apologize. I can't remember the new term for it now. As I'm thinking, as I'm speaking. But it's that game where you have an idea or a thought you whisper it into the ear of one person. Then it gets passed around the circle and you see how effectively it gets passed around. That's basically what they did with a control group of only autistic individuals. They had a group of only neurotypical individuals, and then the next group. Alternate. So autistic, non-autistic, autistic, non-autistic. Now based on traditional views of autistic communication, their prediction was that only the neurotypicals would be able to pass around that message accurately and effectively. The actual results were the group of autistics managed to do it, effectively with 95 or something percent accuracy, the same as the group of only neurotypicals. The disparity came was when it was alternate autistic, non-autistic, autistic, non-autistic, which proves that there is a challenge with communication. I believe there's more research being done as to what it is, what is it that is the barrier between neurodivergent communication styles versus neurotypical. But this is a fascinating, fascinating thing, and I think it goes back to what you were saying in terms of we need to be active listeners rather than passive. We need to let go of assumptions of what we, and, and allowing our brains to fill in what we think they're saying. Clean up communication and have compassion that almost like that, agree to disagree. I can't see it from your perspective. I want to understand more.

Cassie 19:10

Yeah, absolutely, definitely. And, and you know, part of me, even challenges in some sense, the. The active listening that, you know, I'm just kind of going back 15, 20 years ago that, you know, it seemed to be in corporate land that everyone was being encouraged to, you know, listen actively, yeah. Nod your head so the other person knows that you are listening. But actually in the nodding of your head, you are, you, you are more worried about, am I actively listening? Or am I actually listening?

Sarah 19:44

Yeah. Making eye contact. Completely. the

Cassie 19:47

Am I mirroring? Am I doing this, that and the other? Am I building rapport at the same time completely When actually I almost think that the active listening is a distraction.

Sarah 20:02

Yeah.

Cassie 20:03

And how about we just have presence? We just be present with our listening and. Our brain doesn't need to be active while we are listening, because we are listening. We are not listening, to think, we're just listening, and perhaps listening from a place of openness, of softness, of for, for perhaps all parties, whether you're neurodivergent or neurotypical, listening from a place of being open and being open to understand What the other is experiencing and being open in that understanding that there's a potential that is at least 10% of what the person is sharing is true.

Sarah 20:55

Yeah.

Cassie 20:56

Yeah.

Sarah 20:57

yeah.

Cassie 20:57

Instead of a, a rightness and a wrongness. So I think when it comes to being in the workplace, and if there is anyone listening that manages people, whether the neurodivergent or not, your listening is really important. Your neurodivergent team members are likely to be highly sensitive. Therefore, your listening is even more important, and I encourage you to listen with an open heart and listen with an openness and seeking to really, truly understand.

Sarah 21:32

Agree, and if you are neurodivergent and listening to this, try and have some compassion for your neurotypical team members have some patience because they won't always get it. They see things through a different lens and I think when we can honestly have compassion for each other, and I understand it's frustrating'cause I've been there, but this is why coaching is such a great intervention. And I know a lot more organizations are giving their employees access to this. So if you do have that in your organization, absolutely utilize it. Join your neurodivergent networks if you have one, because actually connecting and meeting with other neurodivergent employees, you can kind of share experiences, share ideas, share perspectives. Like, am I blowing this out proportion, am I not? So just this is about removing barriers to communication. You don't have to live in isolation. There are people out there that will understand, connect with those people so you can get some empathy where you need it in order to address the double empathy gap that you are facing, because it's a lot easier when you've got people around you that understand and have compassion.

Cassie 22:59

Yeah, definitely.

Sarah 23:02

We could talk about this a lot more and maybe we will come back and do like a separate, another thing around this. We, we could even do a workshop at some point. But

Cassie 23:12

Yeah.

Sarah 23:12

so much for joining me this week, Cassie. I have loved these conversations. And if you want to get in contact with Cassie or myself, all of our contact details are on the show notes at the bottom of this episode. And if you've got any questions, maybe we can answer them with our hive mind of knowledge and experience, and we can keep the conversation going. So thank you for joining us, we'll see you again soon.

Cassie 23:44

Yeah, it's been an absolute joy.

Sarah 23:48

I hope you found our exploration today, both insightful and inspiring, and if you resonated with anything, then I invite you to subscribe, rate, and review this episode on your preferred platform, whatever it might be, because your feedback is really invaluable and it helps us to reach even more listeners on their own journey of self-discovery. But the conversation doesn't have to end here, you can connect with me on social media. I'm on Instagram under the handle at Sarah. M. Atkins, or you can just find me on Facebook as Sarah Atkins. I would love to hear from you because I'm on a personal mission to bring you thought provoking conversations and practical insights to help you break free from the conditioning that might be holding you back. As we finish this episode, take a moment to reflect on what you've learned today. How can you apply these insights to your own life? What steps can you take to further align with your own authentic self? Thanks again for listening. I really do appreciate you choosing to spend some time with me. And until next time, stay curious, stay authentic, and stay true to you.