The Energetics of Being: A Human Design Podcast

Neurodiversity Celebration Week - Masking, Burnout & Psychological Safety at Work

• Sarah Atkins • Episode 14

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Episode Summary:

In Part 4 of our Neurodiversity Celebration Week mini-series, Sarah and Cassie dive deep into the topic of masking, what it is, why neurodivergent people do it, and the long-term impact it can have on mental health, identity, and performance at work.

They share personal stories and coaching insights on how masking relates to rejection sensitivity, anxiety, burnout, and the struggle to ask for help. The conversation highlights the importance of psychological safety, communication preferences, and recognising your own needs, even when you’ve been conditioned to suppress them.

You’ll also hear practical ideas like creating a “user guide” for your neurodivergent needs, building supportive team dynamics, and how leadership can foster inclusive, high-performing workplaces.

Topics Discussed:

  • What masking is & how it shows up in ADHD, autism & late-diagnosed adults
  • The link between masking, rejection sensitivity, and people-pleasing
  • How masking impacts career progression, mental health & emotional safety
  • The danger of internalising blame & suppressing needs
  • Why many neurodivergent employees end up on performance plans
  • How to identify emotions using body signals & the neurodivergent emotions wheel
  • Creating a personal “user guide” for line managers
  • The power of psychological safety, validation & co-creating inclusive teams

Timestamps:

00:00 – Welcome & what we mean by "masking"
 02:30 – Masking in school vs. university vs. workplace
 06:15 – People-pleasing, suppression & burnout
 09:00 – Cassie’s story: the cost of not asking for help
 12:00 – Being “found out” & fear of being seen
 15:30 – Why performance management often misses the point
 18:00 – The struggle to identify what support you even need
 21:00 – The Neurodivergent Emotions Wheel
 25:00 – Asking for help (and why it's so hard to do)
 29:30 – The problem with “just bring solutions” advice
 32:00 – Creating your own user manual at work
 35:00 – How profiling tools support inclusive team dynamics
 38:00 – Why compassion, curiosity & co-creation matter
 41:00 – Final reflections on validation, safety & performance

Key Quotes:

"Masking is tightly connected to rejection sensitivity—and just trying to survive."
 "I wore calm like a badge of honour, but inside was absolute chaos."
 "It's not that I don’t want help—I just don’t know what help I need."
 "You've never knowingly managed someone neurodivergent."
"When people feel seen, heard and safe—that's when we get their best."

Links & Resources:

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Website: www.sarahatkinsdesign.com

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Buy the 2026 Energetics of Being Journal on Amazon

Sarah:

Hello and welcome back. This is part four for our Neurodiversity Celebration Week. Well done. If you've stuck with us this far, you've got myself, Sarah, and Cassie again, and this episode, we thought we would talk about masking what it is, why we do it. And the fact that it can look different for lots of different people. And what the, I guess what the consequences are when we go behind the mask or drop the mask because it can be different for every single person. I can't pretend to know what somebody else's mask is because it's unique to them. I do know what, I'm still kind of piecing together what mine looks like and when it kicks in, and I think this is one of the challenges, right, with when you are late diagnosed, we mentioned in a couple of episodes ago about untangling those different parts of ourselves. It can be really quite tricky when you've been masking for such a long time to actually recognise when the masking is kicking in. So this is almost like connecting back to that episode that we did all around identity, but also kind of leading us forward into why we mask and how it can show up.

Cassie:

Yeah. Wow. It sounds like it's going to be a really meaty episode. Oh my goodness me, there's so much around this. And you know, it's one of those things, Sarah, that you know, I guess like you, it is not until you start to kind of untangle things and you notice things and inquire into them. begin to realize actually what lies underneath or behind the mask, however we want to,

Sarah:

Yeah.

Cassie:

it. So I'm really curious because you know, you have coached hundreds of people who and neurodiverse,

Sarah:

Yep.

Cassie:

what would you say? I mean, I know everybody's very difficult. Different, not difficult. Everybody's very different. What would you say are the typical kind of situations where you found your clients have been masking? Might just help some of our listeners understand a little bit more about masking and what we're talking about.

Sarah:

Yeah. Okay. So there's a few different things I would say. So with younger clients earlier on in their journey, this quite often shows up in college, university where I think smaller children, younger children, when they're in primary school, are a lot more forgiving. They just kind of accept and they play or they don't play. And you know, it is not so much of a, this parallel play is kind of acceptable. In those kind of scenarios. When we go into secondary school and college and university, people are almost less accepting and less forgiving because they think you should have grown out of certain behaviours, and that's when the masking starts to kick in more strongly. Because if you've got, say for example, you say what you think. You've got a zero filter. I think people are a lot more forgiving when you've got younger children,'cause they might not understand the social constructs, so they're like, oh, you know, oops, we don't say that. We don't do this. When you've got, say, a 16-year-old saying it, it can be portrayed as, he's got really bad attitude. She's just, you know, a bitch or crikey, like they're quite assertive or aggressive and it can be quite often. Misconstrued as that, or misinterpreted. But people are, or young people, especially teenagers, are very unforgiving. So when, if you have a scenario like that where maybe you've said something, somebody's taken offense or it's kicked off, you then start learning that, oh, that's not okay. So then you kind of. Stop yourself. You learn to go, oh, actually that's not okay. I'm not okay to say that, or I'm not okay to think this or be like that. So you start kind of making tweaks. You start watching what other people do is that, oh, I need to be more like them, or I need to be more like that to be in that group. So that's when the masking starts to appear year and. How this can then develop as we get older and we move into the workplace. This is where I see a lot of my late diagnosed adults are chronic people pleasers. They are so afraid to say no. They are so afraid to speak up if they see something. playing out that is wrong. Or even if they know unequivocably that they're right. In extreme cases they won't speak up, they won't say anything because they've got this fear of being called rude or abrupt or like, it's all of that kind of childhood. trauma, I guess, or those bad experiences in the past that will stop them. So they just have a front up. For me personally, I've had scenarios where people have treated me and spoken to me really badly, and I've been bullied in the workplace. But I guess like the masking is so tightly connected to rejection sensitivity as well, I think. And trying to survive. You accept the bad behaviour, you get yourself into difficult positions, not meaning to and sometimes we can't hold the mask, so therefore you might have a, what gets construed as a tantrum or a meltdown, or you start crying in a meeting because you literally can't, you're at the edge and you can't hold it together. And in those scenarios, what I would say, probably about 90% of my autistic clients in particular rather than deal with it, they would leave, they'd find another job because it's too hard. And they fear the judgment, I suppose, of themselves that they'd rather actually just remove themselves from the situation and then start again. So that's what I see a lot. It's not even imposter syndrome, it's not even that really. It's just suppressing emotions, not identifying needs. So even if they're in a scenario, for example, or a work situation where their needs, or they, they can't cope with something or they're struggling with something, they won't ask for help because that's part of the mask. Because if they ask for help, then that is deemed as a weakness. And they can't possibly have people thinking that they can't do their job or they're not capable. So they'd rather just try and battle through. And this is where the mask side of things is so detrimental'cause this is where when we holding up that mask, trying to pretend that everything is okay, constantly, it's not sustainable, and that's where you head towards burnout.

Cassie:

Wow. It's just, there's so much in what you've just said that even resonates as well. You know, you just reminding me of a time when I worked in an organization, gosh, we are going back. I must have been about 21 and I'd had a recent promotion. In an HR team at this place. It was a really big organization, and in this team that I was in, I, I was lucky. I was working in a really lovely team. didn't know about, you know, masking. I didn't even know or understand my struggles. I didn't even recognize I had some struggles and some challenges. What I do remember is a project that I've been given the opportunity to work on, and it was just one for me to work on on my own and to get done by a particular deadline. I struggled so much, but I couldn't ask for help. It was like it, you know, the total of what you were saying there about pretending everything's okay when it's not, and it was a really big scenario like that. I just couldn't. I couldn't break the project down into little pieces enough to then be able to focus on it to get it done. And in the end was awful because I think the worst thing that could have happened, well not quite, but at the time it felt like that did happen and the project got taken off me and given to somebody else. And so of course that then fed probably the rejection sensitivity of, I'm not good enough. I need to escape this and come get another job somewhere else.

Sarah:

I think that's the other thing. It carries with it almost like this constant fear that someone's gonna work out who you are and you've already developed this idea that actually who you really are is not likable, not trustworthy, not reliable. Whatever it is that your traits or your quirks are like not capable, whatever it is you live in this constant fear that somebody's gonna find you out. Somebody's actually gonna figure out who you really are and then you're gonna be in trouble.

Cassie:

Yeah, absolutely. Now, I think half the challenge actually when it comes to being in the workplace is if somebody doesn't understand or doesn't see where and how they may be masking or pretending everything's okay, when it's not numbing things out, suppressing things down, pushing them down, pretending everything's okay, et cetera, et cetera, is that if they then are offered help because they don't see it, they're not gonna be able to, they're not gonna be able to address it. And I think this is perhaps where you may have some people who end up on performance improvement

Sarah:

Yes. Mm-hmm.

Cassie:

Have you found this with the clients that you've worked

Sarah:

So many,

Cassie:

Mm-hmm.

Sarah:

are on performance management plans that are not performing well. And when it kind of gets down to it and we start sort of talking about what those things are, it's where I dunno, unfortunately by the time they come to me because they've been made to come to coaching for whatever reason through their performance management plan, it's not too far gone. In most cases we can work through some scenarios, come up with like, actually identify what the challenges are, develop some coping strategies and identify what their needs are. This is one of the big problems, I think, when you're so used to suppressing emotions, thoughts, ideas, like trying to not blurt things out because you know, if we've got justice sensitivity like when you are aware that you have these challenges and you're trying to contain it all in, because, you know, I can't tell that person he's an idiot and I think he's a complete waste of space because, you know, that's my boss or he is completely incompetent. That's not kind of acceptable. Or I have frustrations because I can see what's gonna go wrong, but they're not listening to me and I just get, keep getting accused of bringing problems. That's a really common thing. Like you're so negative. It's like, no, but I can see where the possible pit pitfalls are and actually if we address them, because I can see the big picture. If we address them now, then we are gonna save time further down the road. The amount of particularly autistic clients I have, it's like I told them this was gonna happen. But at the time they wouldn't listen and now we've just wasted all this time and that's where the justice sensitivity comes in.'cause they're like, well now you're gonna make me redo everything, even though if you'd have done it my way in the first place, we wouldn't be here right now. So they have that because they don't necessarily communicate in a way that sometimes their neurotypical line manager can receive. It's not always received in a particularly good way. So they're the ones that become a problem. There is a very high number on performance management.

Cassie:

Hmm.

Sarah:

I think in that though, quite often they on, they're not on performance management lightly. It's obviously kind of spiraled and spiraled downwards potentially, but that's by the time that gets noticed, obviously things are pretty bad by that point.

Cassie:

Yeah.

Sarah:

In that scenario, the neurodivergent individual doesn't know how to rescue it. They don't know how to bring it back, and they feel like, again, going back to the not being able to ask for help, sometimes they don't even know what help they need. So actually they can't ask for help because they don't know what they need. And this again, comes down to when you're suppressing emotions and just trying to survive their own individual needs don't even come in. So they're so used to just bypassing that, that when, if they do ask for help and somebody says like, what do you need? I'm like, oh shit. I, I dunno.'cause also that's putting them on the spot and they're like, well, I, I don't know. I hadn't thought about that because they're looking to survive all the time. And this was. I've got a client that I was working with last year and one of the first, well the first few sessions that we did, we did some work on identifying emotions because they're in the late forties, late diagnosed, but I think was on the journey for quite a while, recognised there's a lot of neurodivergence in their family. But we did a good couple of sessions after the first session. So we did the first session looking at, I'm sure some people are familiar with the emotions wheel.

Cassie:

Yeah.

Sarah:

There is actually a neurodivergent emotions wheel for anybody that's interested in, and I can probably share this in the show notes, but it's a graphic developed by, I think her name is Lindsey Braman, and yeah, Lindsay Braman. So need to credit her with that, but she's basically created her own version of the Emotions Wheel, but, a neurodivergent version because quite often my neurodivergent individuals don't know what, like the word, the, the word attached to the emotion doesn't necessarily mean anything. So what this neurodivergent emotions wheel is, it identifies first of all, something physical. So I dunno, maybe they get really hot or maybe they notice that they're clenching their jaw, or their gut is churning or they're crying or they feel really tired. What it does is that physical sensation, which they can actually feel or notice gets connected to a feeling,

Cassie:

Mm-hmm.

Sarah:

gets broken down into like six core emotions. So it helps them identify it like, oh I feel really fidgety, or I feel like I'm feeling really tappy, like my foot's tapping. Okay, so what's triggering that? And then there's a selection of words. So it could be feeling embarrassed, it could be feeling anxious, it could be feeling scared. And then all of those kind of filter into the word fear, for example. Now this isn't an exact given'cause some people might have those emotions. And I know we've talked about this before. I used to, when I was younger, I used to feel really frustrated. But that frustration would come out as tears. So people would think that I am upset, but actually for me, it wasn't that it was more angry and frustrated, but I didn't know how to express it in a healthy way, I guess.

Cassie:

Yeah.

Sarah:

So it came out as just tears. So sometimes even those emotions get kind of mixed up in how we, how we outwardly express them versus how we feel inside.

Cassie:

Yeah, absolutely. So. For a neurodivergent person, this really is very much about just starting to notice

Sarah:

Yeah.

Cassie:

things, noticing feelings, noticing bodily senses and reactions, and

Sarah:

being

Cassie:

able to maybe inquire into those, whether it be with your coach,

Sarah:

Yeah. if

Cassie:

you've got a coach

Sarah:

or

Cassie:

a trusted friend

Sarah:

Yeah.

Cassie:

understands and gets this, can be incredibly helpful. Really helpful to just start to untangle and just start to make note of, you know, in areas where maybe you need a little bit of help or a bit of assistance.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Cassie:

remember if that, you know what,

Sarah:

it's

Cassie:

actually okay.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Cassie:

As human beings, we, we, it's good to ask for help.

Sarah:

Do you know what's funny though? And I dunno if you'll connect with this. I constantly, even in my high stress job, I was always, it was almost like an accolade. They're like, oh my God, you're always so calm. You are always so chilled. And I'm like inside. I definitely do not feel like that. So I am the archetypal swan, but I almost wore it like a badge. I'm unflappable inside is utter turmoil, but I got so good at masking that turmoil that I never give anything away. So, and what I have become aware of as I've gotten older is that, and this was almost a bit frustrating, like when I ask, when I actually ask for help, it's because I've already reached that breaking point. Yeah. So when then I don't get the help that I need, that's when it's like a full blown crash. And this is what I think people don't always understand. Like, it's so hard you don't understand how much effort I've put into this before I even come to you to ask for help. And I've, I was in a work situation before at an organisation when I did, bring forward something that I was finding challenging and the response that my line manager at the time said is like, you need to stop coming to me with problems. You need to bring solutions. And I was like, I just didn't know what to do with that. And I was, it was like a proper sucker punch. And it's like I have honestly tried to work through and I didn't obviously advocate for myself at the time because I was like, okay, there is no help. And I think that manager at the time, I want to believe that they were trying to develop me,

Cassie:

Hmm.

Sarah:

but because they didn't understand me and I wasn't, obviously, I didn't know I was neurodivergent at the time. I, I can now. Retrospectively identify what was going on. Yeah, it was, I never went and asked for help again, which then led to massive burnout and actually in hospital for me. But that was the, the extreme right.

Cassie:

Wow. Clearly you learn through experience that it's not safe to ask for help or it's not safe to To, yeah. To bring things forward, you know, to discuss, to talk through.

Sarah:

But this comes down to that psychological safety. If you if,

Cassie:

Yeah.

Sarah:

I know that there'll be many, many neurodivergent individuals listening to this who are like, yeah, but I don't, like my line manager doesn't know about my neurodivergence. I don't wanna disclose it at work. And I completely understand that as well, because this is where psychological safety comes into play.

Cassie:

Yeah. It's really, really, really important and I think this is where it's, it's, it's kind of essential. It's critical actually. The individuals really get to learn and understand who they are, how they are at their best, how they are under pressure or intention or a conflict, or when they're tired, or when they haven't been meeting own basic human needs. When their needs in the workplace support needs are not being met. When we can understand and we've got a good understanding of how we work and how we operate, it makes it much easier to be able to advocate

Sarah:

Yeah.

Cassie:

much easier. And also I think coming from an understanding that you're not broken, and, and I know we spoke about this in one of an earlier episodes, that you know because your brain works differently doesn't mean you are broken.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Cassie:

It just means that your brain works differently

Sarah:

Yes.

Cassie:

being in flow and being able to create flow for yourself is different to the next person and the next person, the next person. And so I think this is where organizations can really help people without needing to hone in on one individual who may have openly said, oh, I am neurodivergent. Because there's a whole host of people who haven't openly said

Sarah:

Yes. they're neurodivergent

Cassie:

We're actually having some kind of team dynamics or being able to help all individuals in a team know themselves and a line manager, know

Sarah:

Yeah.

Cassie:

members and their team member. Knowing how to communicate best with the

Sarah:

Yeah.

Cassie:

and that can actually put a lot of stress, headache, tension, struggle, and challenge to one side.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Cassie:

And create a much better environment.

Sarah:

Yeah, that's a huge thing. And one of the things that I do with my coaching clients is we have, I support them to create their own user guide. Like it's a how to get the best out of them. So we talk about what their sensory needs are, like what their working environment, what their preferences are, their communication style, how they like, how they like to receive feedback, because actually doing that work and helping them identify that. They can then communicate that more effectively to their line manager and they've initially been, some of them been a bit like nervous about sort of sharing this information. But so far, and like you said, I've coached hundreds of neuro divergent people, which kind of weirds me out a little bit, but. I would say probably about 95% of them, those user guides have been received really positively and the, the managers have been really grateful and gone, actually, this is really helpful. It would be great if the rest of the team could do this because it makes their own,

Cassie:

just thinking

Sarah:

it makes their job much easier. Right. And this is where it doesn't have to be a difficult thing, it's just understanding and accepting that the person is an individual and we all have individual needs and preferences, and one size does not fit all, especially when you're managing a team.

Cassie:

Yeah. Definitely, absolutely. And I've found that I've worked with a lot of teams over the years helping them with their team dynamics. Doing different profiling, using different profiling you know, whether somebody is neurodivergent or not. It has helped every single person in the team, um, with their confidence, with gaining clarity over

Sarah:

Mm.

Cassie:

with understanding work colleagues.

Sarah:

Yes.

Cassie:

getting their head around with, you know, situations like, ah, so that's why we've been clashing.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Cassie:

We've been clashing because we are complete opposites and I present something to you and you tell me and pick all the problems out of it, that's actually the, the brilliant contribution that you can bring to any project that before I go and present it to the client, I can share it with you. show me all the bits that I've missed because I don't have an eye for detail and my head's in the clouds and I'm better on strategy than, you know, process. That actually this is where we can work together and appreciate each of the skills. And when you create that in a team and between colleagues, know everything changes because all of a sudden the team. Becomes in flow

Sarah:

Yeah.

Cassie:

each individual is allowed to be in flow.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Cassie:

And, you know, it's, that's, it's, it's really great fun and it's, it's really very rewarding for everybody to be able to experience that.

Sarah:

Yeah. This comes down to that acceptance thing though, isn't it? And understanding, going back to compassion. I know we've mentioned the word compassion a lot in the previous episode, but I remember I listened to a neurodiversity workshop. It was a neurodiversity awareness workshop a few years ago now, but I know this kind of analogy. I love an analogy, right? It kind of helps illustrate things, and I see things in a very visual way. But the illustration was we had like a room, and in that room, it's room full of 10 Windows PCs. They're all running on Windows 10 or 11, whatever version it is. And then you've got a Mac running iOS in the corner and you've got all of these systems running. But the Mac is really good at this thing. And the, but the windows like runs this thing. What do you do? And the, there was a few people that, well, you just get rid of the Mac, don't you, and convert it to a pc. And it's like, oh, that's interesting. Because when they were looking at computers, that's what they saw. And it's like, well, what if you, okay. Turn that into a person like the iOS. Macs are known for good graphics, they're like the creative's favourite. They they're capable of other things. They're not wrong and they're not bad, but some people don't know how to operate Mac, whereas some people are massive advocates for the Microsoft Office and Windows, and they love that. I'm sitting here recording this on a Mac. My husband is massively anti Mac. He's got a PC downstairs. We've had to find systems that work across both. And when we describe, when they describe this, they're like, oh. Oh, now it makes sense.

Cassie:

I love that. What a brilliant metaphor because. It resonates so wildly with me. It really does. You know, I've been using Max for gosh, well over 10 years

Sarah:

Yeah.

Cassie:

and there's a client I've been doing some work with recently who are all on the window system and it's like, oh my goodness me,

Sarah:

It's a different language.

Cassie:

I can't use this

Sarah:

Yeah.

Cassie:

Everything about it is just alien to me.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Cassie:

Yeah.

Sarah:

because just. So it's the same with our mobile phones. Like I've got an iPhone. I love the Apple iPhone, and this is not an advert for iPhone by the way, but my husband hates them. He prefers his Android. But we have to operate a family calendar. So the way we compromised and the way we, you know, whether you love them or hate them or not, you know, the Google Calendar works across both systems. So we found a way that we can both have our own preferences met, and we found a system that works for both of us,

Cassie:

Amazing.

Sarah:

that's the same as what we are asking employers to do. Like one employee is not better than the other necessarily. They don't have a better way of communicating or a better way of managing things. They just manage things differently. What your job is as the organisation is to make sure that both of them operate at the best that they can in

Cassie:

Yeah,

Sarah:

environment.

Cassie:

absolutely, definitely. And, and so there's, the a, a key thing there is a willingness to, to learn to, to naturally want to seek, to understand how does this wonderful human being

Sarah:

Yeah.

Cassie:

How can we help you work and operate at your very best, in a way that keeps your wellbeing

Sarah:

Yeah.

Cassie:

your your wellbeing tank full

Sarah:

Yeah.

Cassie:

and, and vibrant and not depleted in any sense of the imagination?

Sarah:

And to accept that you're gonna get things wrong. Right. But own it. It's okay. No one is gonna, you're not gonna get shot down by flames or, you know I still make mistakes and I've got a neurodivergent family and I still mess things up. Right? Great example. I did it today. I made a joke. It was the end of the school day. I made a joke with my youngest. It massively backfired because I thought I was being funny and possibly at the front end of the day, before he'd been all day in school, he would've found it funny too. But this is, you know, and I have to say, well, I could say, oh my God, don't be so ridiculous. Don't be so sensitive. Instead, it's like, oh, do you know what? I read that situation wrong and I hold my hands up and I'm sorry. I thought it was funny. It's not funny. I own that and I accept it. It's not for me to criticise him for how he feels

Cassie:

Yeah.

Sarah:

or how he responds, because otherwise that's invalidating how he feels and that's how we learn. That our feelings are not important or they're wrong. So I'm trying to actively encourage him not to mask up. I don't want him to mask up. I want him to feel safe. And that's actually one important step I think, in creating that psychological safety, is validating, understanding, showing compassion. And just to kind of circle it back a little bit I had a, a co-coaching session a few months ago where the manager had said like, this is a brand new scenario for me. I've never managed someone neurodivergent. And we had to correct them to say, actually, you've never knowingly managed somebody neurodivergent. Because statistically, if you've been a manager for 20 years, one in four, I think of individuals are neurodivergent. So if you have a team of four people, the chances are one of them has some form of neurodivergence that falls under that massive neurodivergent umbrella.

Cassie:

Yeah. Wow. Wow. It's huge, isn't it, really? And, and I think this really just shows how important it is for, you know, I guess people to be informed or they don't and they don't need to know everything. and, you know, maybe it just goes back to the simplicity of human beings being present with another human

Sarah:

Yeah.

Cassie:

without an agenda, without strings attached. Actually being willing to like put your sword and, and your shield down and, I don't know, whatever it is you're building blocks, and, and just actually sit and be with the human being in front of you

Sarah:

Mm.

Cassie:

and listen

Sarah:

Yeah.

Cassie:

and ask questions and listen and show understanding and compassion. If you don't understand, seek to understand, ask to be helped. Help me understand.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Cassie:

Because I think anybody who is sat with somebody who's open so they're feeling heard, they're feeling seen, open up and they will share more, and what a beautiful place then to start, you know, creating a better environment to work with. I.

Sarah:

Absolutely, absolutely. I don't know anybody that wants to be miserable.

Cassie:

Oh gosh. No. Not at all.

Sarah:

We all, you know, we deserve, we deserve to feel seen, to feel heard, and to feel safe and happy. And when we have all of those things we know from neuro from a neuroscientific point of view, we know from a nervous system point of view, when we feel all of those things, we have better regulation. We can access that prefrontal cortex, which is our thinking brain. So we do our best work, we do our best learning, we do our best problem solving when we're in that state.

Cassie:

absolutely. Performance goes up, communication goes up, productivity goes up, intelligence goes

Sarah:

yeah,

Cassie:

You know, there this, you know, there's so many plus points aren't there to

Sarah:

yeah,

Cassie:

actually taking the time to really understand their people.

Sarah:

a hundred percent.

Cassie:

Yeah. Wow. God, it's been a great conversation. There's so much more actually that I'd love to cover and talk about.

Sarah:

Oh, I'm sure we will cover some more. We still got one more episode to do and I think we're gonna focus on communication next time, so that's gonna be an interesting conversation in itself.

Cassie:

will be. I think it's gonna be another meaty one. Brilliant. Thank you, Sarah.

Sarah:

Brilliant. Well, thanks for listening and we'll catch you on the next episode.