The Energetics of Being: A Human Design Podcast

Neurodiversity Celebration Week Mini-Series with Sarah Atkins & Cassie Footman - Part 1

• Sarah Atkins • Episode 11

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Neurodiversity Celebration Week Mini-Series with Sarah Atkins & Cassie Footman

Episode Summary:

To celebrate Neurodiversity Celebration Week 2025 (March 17-23), Sarah Atkins and Cassie Footman bring you this special mini podcast series exploring neurodivergence, workplace inclusion, and the real-life experiences of ADHD and Autism.

Sarah, an ICF-accredited neurodiversity coach, and Cassie, a business/life coach and HR strategist, share their professional expertise and lived experience as neurodivergent women. Together, they discuss the challenges and strengths of neurodivergent minds, the misconceptions around ‘neurodivergence as a superpower,’ and how organisations can create truly inclusive workplaces.

They also introduce alternative cultural perspectives on neurodivergence, including the Maori language’s empowering definitions of Autism and ADHD, which shift the focus from deficits to strengths.

Topics Discussed:

  • Why we created this mini-series for Neurodiversity Celebration Week
  • Lived experiences of late-diagnosed ADHD & Autism
  • The myth of “neurodivergence as a superpower” & why it’s problematic
  • Challenges with visibility, identity & self-acceptance
  • Workplace misconceptions & corporate ‘tick-box’ inclusion
  • Managing burnout, transitions & structure in daily life
  • The Maori perspective on Autism & ADHD – a more empowering language

Timestamps:

00:00 - Welcome to our Neurodiversity Celebration Week series!
 03:10 - Who we are: Our professional & personal journeys with neurodivergence
 07:45 - Why we struggled to own our expertise in this space
 12:30 - Is neurodivergence really a “superpower”?
 18:20 - The challenges of workplace inclusion & corporate misconceptions
 23:45 - How transitions impact neurodivergent brains (structure vs. freedom)
 34:40 - The Maori perspective on Autism & ADHD – a game-changer
 41:20 - How we can create truly inclusive workplaces & support systems

Key Quotes:

"We don’t buy into the idea that neurodivergence is a ‘superpower’—it can be dismissive of the very real challenges people face."

"Corporate workplaces love a good inclusion ‘tick-box’, but true inclusion means understanding individuals—not forcing people into the same mold."

"The Maori word for Autism, ‘Takiwatanga,’ means ‘in their own time and space’—what a beautiful way to describe neurodivergence."

"I need structure, but I don’t want to follow the process. I need an anchor, but I need the freedom to explore—I realise this sounds like a contradiction, but that’s neurodivergence."

Links & Resources:

Connect With Sarah

Website: www.sarahatkinsdesign.com

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Buy the 2025 Energetics of Being Journal on Amazon

Sarah Atkins:

Welcome to the Energetics of Being Podcast, a podcast that delves into the fascinating world of human design and unravels the layers of conditioning beliefs and expectations that can influence who we become and how we show up in our lives. I'm your host, Sarah Atkins, and I'm really excited to share this journey with you. We'll explore topics such as human design, gene keys, astrology, holistic approaches, coaching, neuroscience, and psychology. We're gonna draw from a rich tapestry of wisdom to help you navigate your own personal journey of self-discovery. So whether you are new to human design or have been on a path of self-discovery for years, this podcast is for you. This is your invitation to step into your power, embrace your uniqueness, and create a life that resonates with your soul's deepest desires. So if you're ready to dive in, let's go.

Sarah:

Today we've got something a little bit different. I'm Sarah Atkins and I'm joined by the lovely and wonderful Cassie Footman. And we have put together a little podcast series, video series, whatever you wanna call it for Neurodiversity Celebration Week this week. 17th of March to the 23rd of March in 2025. If you are listening, not in real time. That's when these episodes are available and we thought we would just have some informal chats, I suppose, just share some of our expertise, some of our real life lived experience as well as professional experience because together we bring a wealth of knowledge. In the space of understanding people, especially neurodivergent brains. so just to kind of give a bit of background for me, for those of you that might not know me or might not have heard of me before I'm a neurodiversity specialist coach accredited with the ICF. I am an ex teacher. I did have a special interest in special educational needs. And I'm also a parent carer of three neurodivergent boys, so I kind of bring together all of that wealth of lived experience and real experience. I am also neurodivergent myself, so I have my own experiences to bring to the table as well. then we have Cassie.

Cassie:

Awesome. Thank you Sarah. Do you know, before I introduce myself, I just really wanna say how excited I am that we are creating this together because. You know, particularly during Neurodiversity Celebration week, we've had so many incredible conversations over the time that we've known each other you know, that have touched on this subject and many other subjects as well that are all interconnected. And I just think it's really brilliant that actually now we're gonna start sharing some of that and our thoughts and our insights and our own learning from our personal experience, as well as that through the people that we've worked with and supported as well.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Cassie:

My background, I, my profession I guess if I could just kind of work back is within human resources. I've worked in HR for, gosh, well over 18 years in all sorts of different roles, but essentially what I've always enjoyed is creating strategy with businesses to really enable people to work at their very best and for the businesses and leaders to create the best environments to enable their people to be at their very best. And then my work spanned out and I became a coach, a business coach, a life coach, and my work has spread out in, in many different ways, but ultimately, the core is really helping people to play to their strengths and bring that into the workplace and live a happy life. With regards to Neurodivergence, I myself am neurodivergent. That was a late I guess understanding for me that the pennies kind of dropped and I got a lot of understanding and that was through that came about through one of my children actually also finding out for themselves that they're neurodivergent. And looking back, I think the majority of my clients that I've worked with naturally also have kind of fit into Neurodivergence as well. So clearly that's why we ended up working together. Yeah.

Sarah:

know it's hilarious though, isn't it? Because. Even though I call myself a neurodiversity specialist coach now, it took me a really long time to outwardly say that that's an area that I specialise in because I never felt like I knew enough. Like what was my credentials like, what was my knowledge, and like you late to diagnosis, I only got my formal diagnosis. This year. So at the grand old age of 46, um, being on the journey personally, probably for the last 10 years through my boys, and knowing that I understood what they were experiencing. I understand them at a whole other level, but I noticed it when I was teaching as well, that I had this uncanny ability to pick out and see what the struggles were. So that's when I started working on special educational interventions, I suppose. Looking at strategies to help my students perform better to help them manage revision or exams and just really getting to understand the individual and what their needs and strengths were and playing to those things rather than doing things in a way. But, and I know that we're gonna touch on this at some point, but it took me a really long time to own, the level of expertise and understanding that I have myself, realising that not everybody has it, if that makes sense.

Cassie:

Yeah.

Sarah:

Because I think when it's your own reality, you don't. You don't know what you don't know. That's why I'm so late to diagnosis because you know when you live it, you don't realise it's not how everybody else thinks or feels or behaves, right?

Cassie:

Absolutely it. It kind of becomes your normal. It's your normal, it's what you are used to.

Sarah:

Yes.

Cassie:

Yeah, definitely. I can certainly relate to that.

Sarah:

I remember when I met my husband, I. And we were sort of first going out and we start, you start getting to know each other and he'd be like, what are you thinking? and I'd come out with this like rad of this stream of thought. And he was like, there's no way that that goes on in your head. I'm like, Uhhuh, constant. And he is like, but that's just exhausting. How, how can one person think that much in such a short space of time? I was like, well, doesn't everybody do that? No.

Cassie:

How could one.

Sarah:

it's just hilarious. And I remember we had a conversation and I was like, yeah, but do you not have that? Chatter like the, the voice, you know, the, those voices like, and you see the look on other people's faces. You're like, you hear voices. I'm like, oh, oh, oh. You don't hear voices. Do you not imagine my surprise when I find out that not everybody has an internal dialogue constantly.

Cassie:

Yeah, I must admit, I think that was something that I was really surprised about and it still makes me giggle because I find it fascinating, you know? I laugh at myself and I think this is where, you know, you can create lightness here with it all, is that I really laugh at myself sometimes. It's like, what? You say what in your head? And it's like this outward giggle will come out and somebody says, you are right. I said, yeah, I'm absolutely fine. I'm having a wonderful time up here.

Sarah:

But this is why we wanted to talk about

Cassie:

Yeah.

Sarah:

in particular because one of the conversations that we've had and I've had recently with another amazing neuro divergent human being is that we don't buy into this narrative around. You know, neurodivergence is your superpower. Like you're so lucky and, and I understand that the need for people to want to be positive about it and to be accepting about it, and I get that and I appreciate that. However, it can feel quite dismissive as to like, oh, well it's not really a problem, is it? It's a superpower. You're fine. And it completely, almost eradicates. The real struggle'cause there are real challenges and real struggles, right?

Cassie:

Oh my goodness me. There are huge struggles, huge challenges, and I actually, I think. When I started to wonder about myself, whether I was neurodivergent, it was the struggles that I was experiencing that were, you know, it was like this push pull tug of war the time. Yes, there were parts of me that, you know, were amazing, but actually they were overshadowed by all the struggles that I had, and I was finding it increasingly frustrating. And then when I got to understand more about Neurodivergence and perhaps how, you know, my struggles have potentially been brought about through my Neurodivergence, it was like the penny dropping. It's like, oh my goodness me,

Sarah:

Yeah.

Cassie:

it's not me. I'm not stupid. But that, and that really helped, but it didn't take away the struggle. The struggle is still there. Yes. You know, the great aspects are still there as well, but the struggle is still there and for me it's been very much about understanding and appreciating and having compassion for myself around that that is, has been massive thing for me.

Sarah:

One of the things that, in terms of challenge that as you were talking, I was reflecting on because it's like how far back do these challenges go? So I remember when you fill out your assessment criteria or your diagnosis. They get you to do lots of questionnaires and lots of self-reflection, dah, dah, dah. And it's funny because you forget so much and there's definitely been periods in my life that I've gone, in terms of reflecting back and I'm like, oh, that was a sign. That was a sign. And that. Obviously I never knew. So I can think about the first time I properly had a breakdown, I guess for want of a better description. Burnout, whatever you wanna call it. I experienced my first panic attack, and it was when I left university. And I'd taken on a part-time job just while I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do, but it was like. Leaving university, having been in education all the way through until what the age of 22, 23. There was a structure, there was a structure to everything. Albeit, you know, there was also deadlines for things. I'm a deadline dancer. I would always do things at the last second despite my best efforts. I always go in with something with a really good intention, but almost the longer the. Deadline is the worst it'll be. But anyway, that's another story. At the same time, having those deadlines, even though I am a deadline dancer, it still created structure. There was always something to work towards. There was a framework. I was independent obviously'cause I was living on my own, um, or like in a student house and I had two part-time jobs while I was studying. But there was always structure when I left university. I would say that's probably the first time that the wheels fell off because all of a sudden I was like, I have no idea where I'm going, what I'm doing. And I see it now because my son has had the same similar thing and he's still in education, but it created almost like this catastrophic existential crisis of who am I? Well, what am I doing? There was no anchor point. I. And I had never realised how important back then an anchor point is for me. And obviously what I now understand in terms of neurodivergence, particularly with my autistic clients, I would say, or AuDHDer's, which is what I am. And we need some kind of anchor point, some stability, whether that's a person, a place a framework, a structure of some kind. There needs to be some kind of stability. And when there is nothing there, it can feel literally like you're falling out of an airplane and you don't know where you are gonna stop. Have you ever experienced anything like that?

Cassie:

Yeah, it certainly resonates and, and it also, part of it doesn't, and, and let me explain that. So I get, and yeah, absolutely structure. I need structure, but too much structure

Sarah:

Yeah.

Cassie:

is not good for me at all. Like yeah, it bring, it's too much structure can bring out the worst in me.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Cassie:

So I, it, it's almost like needing the structure that's almost like a framework. So maybe the anchor, but it cannot be prescriptive. I need freedom. So for me, I, I've learned that having structure creates freedom for me, and the structure may be as much as, you know, I'm in point A now and I need a point B that I'm striving towards. And if I don't, when I meet that point B, if I don't have that, point B then becomes my point A, the where I am now, and then I need a new point B. So there always needs to be something there for me. And what I found is the times when I've left my point A and I've achieved my point B, being a high achiever kind of person, I've achieved point B. If I then don't have something else to strive for, I'll have a crash. And it's like a paradigm crash. It would be like a complete depression. It would be a loss, you know, I'd achieve something great, but then there'd be a loss because that isn't there anymore. The, the striving and the driving towards it isn't there. So does that make any sense whatsoever?

Sarah:

It makes complete sense to me and I think maybe we are talking about a very similar thing, and also to acknowledge what you are saying in the fact that actually Neurodivergence is such a broad umbrella and just because what works for one person works for that person doesn't mean it's gonna work for the next person. So I think when you are a business leader, or if you are, a team leader in any kind of way, like whether you're in corporate, whether you run your own business, it doesn't really matter. One size does not fit all. That's the key thing when we're talking about Neurodivergence. I've worked for organisations and I've worked within organisations. Where neurodivergence is very buzzwordy, isn't it? Right now there seems to be, and this is massively my perception so I apologise if people disagree, but this is just my perception. have some organisations and some individuals who are approaching it as a individual let's see what you need. Let's, you know, see if we can meet those needs and let's see what we can do to work together. It's a collaborative approach. And then you've got other organisations who love talking good talk, and it's like, well, we've got a tick list. We've done all the things that we need to do. And they, they talk a good talk. But actually when it comes to the reality, it, it's too hard. It doesn't have to be difficult, right? It's accepting that, okay, you need points, like, almost like checking points. Like this is the route you can find your own way, but that's what the outcome needs to be. So it's very task driven, task orientated which generally speaking is quite an Adhd type focus.

Cassie:

Mm-hmm.

Sarah:

Whereas a more of an autistic characteristic is wanting structure. They need to know what to expect, what the expectations are, what the processes are but also knowing that if they see a better way, that you are open to adapting that process to get to the right outcome. So it's having. A bit of structure and a bit of framework again, but it's slightly different. And then the people like me who are AuDHD who have those two, it is like having two separate people inside your head arguing. Because I need a framework, I need an anchor point, but also need freedom to explore. I need freedom to just test things out, to push boundaries to, um. Have fun to not be held back. So I want to know what the process is, but I don't necessarily want to use the process. Which I realise is a complete contradiction in term, which I guess maybe that's where the confusion comes with neurotypical people trying to understand what the needs are.

Cassie:

Yeah, definitely. And, and so what you just described there for yourself really does resonate massively, I think. Yeah, it does. And you know, from my own experience of one working in, you know, big businesses and you know, I guess also from my experience in HR as well, working with line managers and helping them to get the most out of their people. The number one thing I think that a lot of businesses, certainly the ones that I work for, work with, so this is obviously restricted to my own experience and isn't reflective of every organisation, is that, you know, managers and businesses don't tend to take the time and put the energy and effort into really understanding their people. They make so many assumptions about who they have. And have very rigid structures. And I get and understand that organisations need structures in place. But they'll be very assumptive of the individuals that they have in place. And you know, it's a little bit like do you remember as a child having one of those shape sorters that you've got the square, the circle, the star, the rectangle, and you had to put them in the right shaped holes? Well, I see corporate a little bit, like assuming that everybody's a square. And they'll push the square peg into whatever shape hole, regardless of whether it fits or not. We'll bash, we'll push it, we'll pull it, we'll do everything to try and make it squeeze and fit and it doesn't work, you know? And, and actually when, if an organisation was able to put a little bit of time, effort and energy, patience and compassion into really understanding what shapes they have in a team. Understanding that, you know, the star is really great at this. Don't ask them to do that, because then they will be the square in the back in, in the in, you know, trying to get into the, you know, the wrong shape hole and you won't get the best out of them. And just understanding that different things, different tasks, different abilities, different environments, different situations, can put somebody in flow or can take them outta

Sarah:

Mm.

Cassie:

And this is regardless of the neurodivergence. And I really think that a lot of places over complicate it.

Sarah:

Mm.

Cassie:

But just simply understanding who you've got in your team, what their strengths are, where they can add the most value. Giving people, the room to contribute. Having rules in place as it were, you know, this is the way we do things around here, but allowing people to flex it depending on their shape.

Sarah:

Yeah. you know what though? This is where my brain went. You talk about the shape sorter. I remember it had a red half and a blue half, and the yellow handles to pull it apart. I was also the kid that would try or look at the shapes and go, I reckon if I move that at that angle, that will go through that hole. So again, like I know what the framework is and I know what the shape is, but I'm gonna test out something else and just see if that works. If it doesn't, that's cool. I'll go back to using the framework.

Cassie:

But how wonderful, if you're working in an environment that enabled that innovation, allowed that innovation for you to test out and try things in a different way, to experiment, to then learn that actually, yes, it does work. No, it doesn't work, but, to make it okay to maybe make a mistake because, you know. That's where there's gonna be some gold coming out of that, that then intelligence can then be put into the next thing. But we don't always, we, we don't know in advance that that's gonna happen as a result of something. But we know if we allow that step and we give the confidence and the environment to allow people to test things out. But that takes a lot of trust. It takes a lot of compassion and it takes a lot of. I guess open-mindedness.

Sarah:

Yeah, and it's, well, this kind of comes onto the mission, the whole point of why we are doing this little series, because we wanted to, when we were talking just the two of us, I loved what your mission was in the work that you do now, and it was, oh, you probably say it better, but the overriding theme is that everyone deserves an opportunity to smile every day.

Cassie:

Yeah.

Sarah:

That's the big takeaway that I got from that. And I'm sure we'll come back to that at some point.

Cassie:

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And it's so important. It's incredibly important. There is so much talent in the world. And let's be honest, the world needs all the talent to come forward. To be embodied. To be owned.

Sarah:

Yes, and the creativity that we need. Those people

Cassie:

Yeah.

Sarah:

that want to look outside of the confines of what we do or the way things have always been done, because that's that's part of our evolution, right? As human beings

Cassie:

Yeah.

Sarah:

that's what got us here. Otherwise, we'd still be sitting inside caves, like wearing bear skins or, you know, whatever. It's that creative, out of the box thinking that moves us forward, so we should be embracing it rather than suppressing it.

Cassie:

Definitely 100%. And I think that the key thing for me that really excited me about having these conversations is what you shared about the Maori community and their approach and their view of neurodivergence from the autistic perspective and the Adhder, you know, and how that was described. So share, share that so everybody can hear what that's about.

Sarah:

Okay. So I had a conversation with somebody from my husband's place of work, actually very inspiring guy. I'm actually going to do a talk with them for. Neurodiversity diversity celebration week this week as well. But he shared some wisdom, and I've kind of gone into this a bit deeper'cause it just blew my mind. And I was like, why, why can we not approach things in the same way? So the Maori word for disabled, and I apologise for anybody who can speak Maori about my pronunciation is whaikaha which means to have strength or to be differently able. So they don't have a word for disabled, they just term it as differently able. Right. I then went a bit deeper into looking at the Maori terms for autism and Adhd, and the word for autism is Takiwatanga which literally means in his or her own time and space. Which I just thought was beautiful because what I know from not just myself and my family, but from a lot of my autistic clients is that is a processing. Challenge, they process information in a different way and they just need time and space to process understand and make sense of things. And actually, if you just give them time and space, things are a bit happier in the household. So for example, how that translates in real life. You know, when I was parenting a child and he didn't want to transition out of the park into going home. I now know that if I manage that transition by giving him like a 15 minute warning, then a 10 minute warning, and then a five minute warning. Not in a hard way, but just oh, five minute or, you know, those transitions are a lot smoother because. You're not expecting them to do something straight away. They just need a bit of transition time. And actually from a neuroscientific point of view, our brain needs up to 15 minutes to transition from one task into the next. So it's not a big deal. It doesn't have to be difficult. Some people need longer to transition than others.

Cassie:

Yeah.

Sarah:

And I remember, and I've definitely been guilty of this, holding up that badge of I can multitask, that's my Adhd side. I can spin plates, I can multitask, yes I can, but I can't sustain it. And if I am managing more than one task, can I guarantee that they will be done in highest standard possible, probably not because I'm not paying my full attention to it. Which then leads me onto the Maori word for Adhd, which again, they don't have a direct translation, but they refer to it as aroreretini, which means attention goes to many places. I just love it. It's such a nicer term. It's a nicer way of framing something that in our language and in our world has very negative connotations I think.

Cassie:

Yeah.

Sarah:

And it's just a much more beautiful way of approaching it.

Cassie:

It absolutely is. And, and for me, it, it just brought an understanding, it brought a compassionate stance to it

Sarah:

Yeah.

Cassie:

because the, the words that we use in the English language that describes much of neurodiversity, it has the word dis in it.

Sarah:

Yeah. Disorder deficit, it is also disempowering, right?

Cassie:

Massively. Massively. And disenabling.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Cassie:

Yeah. And I really loved what you shared about the Maori perspective on those words. They're so open, they're accepting. That we are not all the same shape, size, colour, blend, taste, smell, whatever. Yeah. We're also unique and be celebrated for that, and to have the same opportunity regardless of our uniqueness. It's just very welcoming and very compassionate, very open and very loving.

Sarah:

I completely agree with everything you've just said, but I think it's also valuing. Valuing what you bring rather than what you don't. Do you know what I mean? Rather than pointing out everything that you don't bring, it's shifting the focus on what you do bring. Which again, we've almost kind of gone full circle where I know we're gonna cover this in another chat, but I don't buy into it as a superpower because it's very dismissive of the challenge. However, we don't need to labour the point on the challenge. We need to lean more into what we do bring what we are capable of, and coming up with strategies and solutions for what we struggle with.

Cassie:

Yeah, definitely. What puts you in flow? When are you at your best? What takes you out of flow? How not to get the best out of you, how not to communicate with you. You know, I think when somebody really, truly understands how to. Bring out the best in somebody and, you know, bringing it into the simplest thing like you did, talking about your child and managing transitions. I mean, transitions in itself is a huge subject, particularly in the workplace. Transitions from one one work stream to another work stream. Managing a transition in a promotion from being a member of a team to all of a sudden managing a team. You know, they are huge, and if they're ignored and they're not managed and respected and guided and supported, then things really can go wrong and people can really not feel valued very, very quickly.

Sarah:

Yeah brilliant I think we'll leave it there for this chat and then we'll carry on in the next one.

Cassie:

I look forward to it.

Sarah:

Thanks Cassie.

Sarah Atkins:

I hope you found our exploration today, both insightful and inspiring, and if you resonated with what you heard today, I invite you to subscribe, rate, and review this podcast on your preferred platform, whatever that might be. Your feedback is really invaluable and it helps us to reach even more listeners on their own journey of self-discovery. And remember, the conversation doesn't have to end here. You can connect with me on social media. I'm on Instagram under the handle sarah m atkins. Or you can find me on Facebook just as Sarah Atkins. I would really love to hear from you and continue our conversation there. I am on a personal mission to bring you thought provoking conversations and practical insights to help you break free from the conditioning that holds you back. And as we close out this episode, take a moment to reflect on what you've learned today. How can you apply these insights to your own life? What steps can you take to further align with your own authentic self? Thank you again for listening. I really do appreciate you choosing to spend some time with me. And until next time, stay curious, stay authentic, and stay true to you.